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Jack, Jackie and Bob- an expanded triolet
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Jack, Jackie and Bob- an expanded triolet |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows That made me laugh with wild delight Until I had a runny nose. Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows. They were just ordinary joes But Ralph and Norton were a sight! Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows That made me laugh with wild delight. Bring back the funny Bob Hope shows Wherever men were sent to fight. He traveled with the USO's Bring back the funny Bob Hope shows. While soldiers fought against our foes He offered them a brief respite. Bring back those funny Bob Hope Shows Wherever men were sent to fight. Bring back those great Jack Benny shows That used to fill my Friday night. Chin held by hand in classic pose Bring back those great Jack Benny shows. As everyone who watched him knows His fiddle playing was a fright! Bring back those great Jack Benny shows That used to fill my Friday night. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows That bring the dark where once was light. Joy comes to life and then it goes. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows. These three now share deserved repose Forever young in Heaven's sight. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows That bring the dark where once was light. In my mind admiration grows For these three stars that shone so bright Until the final curtain close In my mind admiration grows. I thank them for their silly prose And bid the three a fond goodnight. In my mind admiration grows For these three stars that shone so bright. |
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| © Copyright 2008 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Balladeer! A funny and nostalgic piece! One pickety: In my mind admiration grows For these three stars that shone so bright Until the final curtain close In my mind admiration grows. "close" doesn't quite work. Could it be just "closed," or, since there are three characters, might it be "curtains closed?" I grew up whith these comedic greats as well, and was entertained by Hope in Viet Nam. Thank goodness for cable, where everything seems to recycle, and we get to enjoy these humorists afresh. Best, Jim Aitken |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I enjoyed the first half, nothing exciting, but whimsical and in that the best thing you've posted in CA so far. but then it seems to fall into Babylon 5 reruns: quote: You know, if you changed this second part or just read Heaven as TV, then, well . . . are you sure you didn't get 'Strip'?  |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I like this poem. It tells the very true feeling by repeating certain verses...kind like mixture of "want", "longing", "whining". in right style, i shall say. Then, how do I read it? BRING back the JACkie GLEAson SHOWS That made me LAUGH with WILD deLIGHT UnTIL I had a RUNny NOSE. Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim, the action at the end of a play is called the curtain close. Thanks for the comments. Brad...Babylon 5 reruns? That's a unique description. If you think it is as ambigious as Strip I'm in real trouble!  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Tom... bring BACK the JACkie GLEAson SHOWS that MADE me LAUGH with WILD deLIGHT unTIL i HAD a RUNny NOSE bring BACK the JACkie GLEAson SHOWS. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
? why you leave "Bring" unstressed? Still your local thing?  And go to sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I enjoyed the first half, nothing exciting,... Ok, Brad. I'm always willing to learn. Write me a triolet of eight lines, five of them repetitious and make them exciting. Then write another one, then another, and yet another,and another, then string them all together with a common cord and make THAT exciting. I await your results The triolet is one of the hardest forms in poetry because of the repetition. It is not meant to be able to create excitement. If it creates something enjoyable then it is successful. Glad you enjoyed it (or at least parts of it ) |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Tom...well, if my local thing is English, then I guess so bring BACK come BACK go BACK That's the way it is....locally |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
TM, I can't read 'bring back' that way (it sounds like one word if I do). I can see it as as a spondee though (BRING BACK) and that won't change the rhythm but then neither would a trochee, I just can't read it that way. That's not local. I thought you were right on the rhymes in the 'war' poem, but, to be honest, I love stuff like that. Ever hear an Austrailian Scotsman say David Bowie? Mike, Now why would I do that? One of the things I like about the triolet is its brevity. Personally, I think that's a factor in writing a triolet. You chose to change the form, I didn't, and to me it sounds much more like a variable pantoum than a triolet. Form is not an excuse for anything. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work whether it's a sonnet, a grose, haiku, cinquain, or whatever. All poems have a form. The question is whether or not the form matches what you want to do with the poem. If it doesn't, it's an exercise. Do you think the first half is 'exciting'? As far as I can tell, you weren't even shooting for exciting, I genuinely liked the first fun parts here. I thought they were cute. Admittedly, I don't see how someone stops laughing because they had a runny nose but presumably you intended that to be a euphemism for something else -- laughing so hard you started crying or something along those lines. quote: Well, yes and no. They were actors and comedians pretending to be ordinary joes. The muted distinction here becomes important later. I'm with you on the significance of "The Honeymooners" resurrected in the "Jackie Gleason Show" and how important it was for American culture as a whole. There's something interesting about the whole "Jackie Gleason show" or the "Mary Tyler Moore show" or the "Bob Newhart Show" and so on. We remember the name of the star, but almost never the character name and yet we remember the star as the character. "Seinfeldt," on the other hand, plays himself and is sill fictional. You touch on that, you use the character names here, and that's worth pursuing. quote: You lose some of that initial momentum here. You focus, not on the show itself, but on what it did for soldiers. Again, Bob Hope is and was an icon of the USO show (and I am told the stuff I saw on TV doesn't really capture how good he was or how vulgar.). But the very distinctiveness of Bob is not shown here, you rely on it, you don't add to it. quote: I haven't seen his fiddle playing, but you meant literally a fright, right? But what do we have so far? Jackie Gleason as an ordinary joe, Bob Hope at the USO, and Jack Benny playing the fiddle. For the speaker of the poem, the two Jack's are personal: "That made me laugh with wild delight Until I had a runny nose." "That used to fill my Friday night." Bob Hope is not: "While soldiers fought against our foes He offered them a brief respite." Intentional? Unintentional? For the sake of the form? A mistake? A Fruedian slip? It doesn't matter. The choices here are worth pursuing or correcting. You just don't. You go into Nevernever land: quote: "I walk in the shadow between the dark and the light." Now, what is this? Filler? (If that's all it is, you shouldn't be asking me to write five triolets, you should be writing fewer of them. ). Still, the whole dark and light thing, the ebb and flow, created an image of an old TV (black and white), a dark, studio apartment, and the playing of the light of the TV on the furniture and whatnot of the apartment.At least for me. It may not be a particularly original image, but it is an image of lonliness, a Twilight Zone image perhaps. The basic idea then is not that these three stars are in Heaven, but that the dark and the light, the ebb and the flow, are their lives on TV (the Bob Hope section doesn't work here and this creates another problem or tension depending on what you want to do.) quote: Well, a closure (could go further with these lines but this post is already too long), but the dilemma or muted distinction that I mentioned earlier is left unresolved. In what sense does the speaker see these three as people or as characters? Or as stars? The amazing thing, if I'm to take all of what you say seriously, is that you've posted a splendidly postmodern poem without even trying. I guess you might argue that I'm reading too much into it, but you put this into it: "The tides of Life have ebbs and flows That bring the dark where once was light. Joy comes to life and then it goes. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows. These three now share deserved repose Forever young in Heaven's sight. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows That bring the dark where once was light." So, methinks you're protests will sound ever so slightly like a television montage of Ralph Cramden saying, "One of these days, Alice . . ." Nobody'll believe you. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Just try to find fault with him, Dear sir Brad. The mood of this poem is whining, like "gi-me, gi-me, I want it, I want it". It was not exciting. If something like, Why not Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows How much That made me laugh with wild delight oh boy, Until I had a runny nose. why not Bring back the Jackie Gleason shows. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I guess you might argue that I'm reading too much into it, Brad, you're reading too much into it.....WAY too much. When one reads something with no preconceived notions, it is a valid read. When one reads with the intention of finding errors, one will find them, one way or another. You chose to change the form, I didn't, and to me it sounds much more like a variable pantoum than a triolet. I changed no form. If you check the different forms of structured poetry you will find the "expanded triolet", which is a combination of triolets with a common theme. That's what I wrote and even labeled it as such in the title. As far as I can tell, you weren't even shooting for exciting No, I wasn't. I was shooting for cute, pleasant and nostalgic. I see nothing wrong with any of those targets. Admittedly, I don't see how someone stops laughing because they had a runny nose but presumably you intended that to be a euphemism for something else -- laughing so hard you started crying or something along those lines No, no euphemism and if you haven't experienced that you have my sympathy. I have laughed so hard at something my eyes started watering and nose ran like Secretariat at the Belmont and you can believe me that, when the nose does start running, you DO stop laughing to wipe it - very hard to wipe a runny nose while continuing to guffaw (very messy) Well, yes and no. They were actors and comedians pretending to be ordinary joes So? I was referring to ralph and Norton as ordinary joes, which WERE the characters portrayed. Your pointing out that they were really actors playing a part is not only senseless, it takes nitpicking to a new level. You focus, not on the show itself, but on what it did for soldiers. No, I focus on Bob Hope, one of the fellows in the title...him, his personality, his generosity, what he did for the soldiers, all facets of his personalities and some of the reasons he is missed. You want to call that losing momentum? Be my guest. I haven't seen his fiddle playing, but you meant literally a fright, right? Obviously Jack Benny was before your time. His fiddle playing was legendary....how bad it was. He did skits around it and it was a clever part of the personality he projected, intentionally. But what do we have so far? Jackie Gleason as an ordinary joe, Bob Hope at the USO, and Jack Benny playing the fiddle That's what YOU have, I suppose. Jackie Gleason, Bib Hope and Jack Benny need no introduction from me. Everyone from that era, at least, knows who they were and what kind of people they were. It would be unnecessary for me to point out they were comedians, actors, or whatever. All I did was take certain parts of their lives they were known for. Jackie Gleason was best known from his portrayal of Ralph Cramden, an ordinary Joe. Bob Hope was well known for his entertaining the troops all over the world. Jack Benny was known for his comedy show, being a miser, having the classic pose of his chin resting on his hand and his horrific violin. The rest of your response dealing with never never land is all drivel to me and I have no idea what you mean by it. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows The tides of life do have ebbs and flows, highs and lows, ups and downs. That bring the dark where once was light. Death Joy comes to life and then it goes. Death The tides of Life have ebbs and flows. These three now share deserved repose Forever young in Heaven's sight. They have earned their rest and reside in heaven, young forever and alive. The tides of Life have ebbs and flows That bring the dark where once was light. :In my mind admiration grows For these three stars that shone so bright Until the final curtain close In my mind admiration grows. I thank them for their silly prose And bid the three a fond goodnight. In my mind admiration grows For these three stars that shone so bright. I think these lines are self-explanatory. In what sense does the speaker see these three as people or as characters? Or as stars? People saw these three as people, characters and stars long before i wrote this poem. I didn't write three biographies. I wrote a tribute to three great men of our era, mentioning a few personal traits they are remembered for. So, methinks you're protests will sound ever so slightly like a television montage of Ralph Cramden saying, "One of these days, Alice . . ." First of all, it's YOUR protests, not YOU'RE , and second I have no idea what protests you are referring to. (If that's all it is, you shouldn't be asking me to write five triolets, you should be writing fewer of them. Nice insult. No, I should be POSTING fewer of them...here. You are an intelligent man, Brad, and the senselessness of your objections can only be intentional and the way you present them borders on the personal. I'll try to remember not to say I don't understand your poems in the future [This message has been edited by Balladeer (01-12-2008 11:22 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Wow! Talk about a misunderstanding. First, a couple of apologies: 1. I apologise for the typos ('you're' wasn't the only one!) 2. I apologise for forgetting about the extended triolet (but I still think it sounds like a pantoum). Really, none of the above was intended to be personal. I think, however, that I overdid it on the proactive part. You see, I really did think that you were going to respond with an off the cuff comment, a joke or two, and I wanted to try to get you to see that you have something more to work with here. I guess you don't see 'splendidly postmodern' as a compliment. My first reading, as far as I can tell, was pretty much the same as your explanation, but the jump to 'The tide of Life ebbs and flows' bothered me. It started to make a kind of sense to me, the moment I saw the 'dark and light' as the flickering TV screen. I saw the poem very differently. I still do. I'm not trying insult you, the last thing I wanted was to be personal. Yet, I did want to try to get you to see what I'm seeing here. Now, there, you got me. I was pretty sure that you intended this as a 'light' piece and I was pretty sure that was how you would respond. I was wrong on the latter and for that I apologise. I'm up to three 'sorry's now. So, what can I do? Honestly, the only thing I can ask you to do is to look at what I'm saying, not as criticism, but as a different way of seeing what you've written. That people should go to heaven based on their public persona and not their actions in the 'real world' is a very serious theme. I think it's worth talking about. Oh, and I do hope that smiley thing at the end means that I shouldn't take that last sentence seriously. That we have differing tastes in poetry is a given. The very fact that we are different is a net plus for this forum and when you read my stuff, a net plus for me -- yes, personally. I can only hope that you feel the same. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, Brad.. That people should go to heaven based on their public persona and not their actions in the 'real world' is a very serious theme. It may be a serious theme but not one that I intended. I don't think I said anywhere that their public persona is what got them through the pearly gates....although their actions in the real world did bring laughter and pleasure to many and that's not a bad ticket. Besides, the poem wouldn't have worked out that well if I said they went to hell Yes, take that smilie in the right way. In our diversities are our strengths...and good for a few laughs along the way. (one of my ex-wives told me that) [This message has been edited by Balladeer (01-13-2008 08:25 AM).] |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
My dear Sir Balladeer, it is Californian's turn. Am I reading the wrong clock? Ma, Ma, he is still on-line!!!!! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You never know when, Tom |
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